Air Date: Week of January 24, 2025

On his first day in office President Donald Trump made a series of pronouncements and signed more than two dozen executive orders. (Photo: The Trump White House, Wikimedia Commons, Public Domain)

Back in power, President Trump immediately took aim at climate and environmental protection with a flurry of executive orders such as blocking the Paris Climate Accord and boosting fossil fuel sales. Environmental law expert Pat Parenteau joins Hosts Steve Curwood and Jenni Doering to explain why the President may have over-reached but could still do lasting damage to the climate and environment.

Transcript

CURWOOD: From PRX and the Jennifer and Ted Stanley Studios at the University of Massachusetts, Boston this is Living on Earth. I’m Steve Curwood.

DOERING: And I’m Jenni Doering.

President Trump has made one thing clear at the beginning of his second time in office. He has no interest in using his powers to slow the advance of the climate emergency.

TRUMP: So, we have more oil and gas than any country in the world and we're gonna use it. We're not gonna do the wind thing.

CURWOOD: It’s not just the climate he doesn’t want to help. Among a flurry of executive orders, he has issued a bunch to try to stymie environmental protection.

DOERING: Joining us now is our regular contributor Pat Parenteau, Emeritus Professor at Vermont Law and Graduate School and former EPA Regional Counsel. Pat, good to have you back again!

PARENTEAU: Thanks.

CURWOOD: Let's talk about the slew of orders that President Trump signed on his first day in office. Tell me, what kind of power does an executive order have and on what timeline?

PARENTEAU: So, executive orders are really just directions to the rest of the federal government, and by themselves, they don't actually create any new law. They're really not legal documents, per se. They are directions from the President, obviously, the CEO of the government, to his appointees. But it's only when those appointees, let's say the Secretary of Interior, Secretary of Energy, Administrator, EPA and so forth, it's only when they then take specific actions based on the orders they've been given that you have what we call a final agency action that could be challenged in court, for example, or at least when it begins to actually take effect in the real world. So, the orders themselves are setting the stage for what's to come.

DOERING: Well, there really are too many orders here, Pat, to discuss in one sitting. So, could you walk us through just a few of the heavy hitters in the environmental realm? What stuck out to you?

PARENTEAU: Right, well, the one that's getting all the attention is the quote, declaration of an energy emergency. Of course, there is no energy emergency. The United States is the largest producer and marketer and exporter of oil and gas in the world. Gasoline prices are actually the lowest they've been in 70 years. So, there is no energy emergency. There's a climate emergency, for sure, but there's no energy emergency. Now, what we've heard from the Secretary of Interior designate Governor Burgum, is that there's gonna be a surge of electricity demand related to AI, and that's for sure. But here's the thing, what studies have shown is that you know what the fastest way to generate electricity in the United States is right now? Build solar farms. So, it's not trying to build brand new power plants. If you really wanted to prepare for the demands from AI, you would be building solar farms left and right.

CURWOOD: Let's talk about the foreign policy here. What does his order in those areas mean?

PARENTEAU: Well, we knew going in that he was going to withdraw, once again, from the Paris Agreement, and his executive order directs the State Department to do that. It takes a year to withdraw from Paris. That's gonna have ripple effects, of course, across the globe. It's interesting that China's response is, well, we don't need you. And you know what? There's some truth to that. China is the largest producer of solar panels in the world. China is becoming the largest producer of electric vehicles in the world. China has most of the rare earth materials we need and processing facilities we need for the EV revolution and so forth. So, there's gonna be a mixed reaction, I think, to the US leaving. It's not a good thing, by any means. But I think other countries are going to step up.

CURWOOD: Hey, Pat, President Trump is saying he wants to get rid of what's known as the endangerment finding, that is that carbon dioxide is a pollutant. I mean, this was won in the Supreme Court, what, 20 or so years ago, 15, 20, years ago, and then the EPA did decide that carbon dioxide is a pollutant, and therefore giving its status to take on the question of climate disruption. What does Trump's rhetoric have to do with the reality of dealing with the endangerment finding?

PARENTEAU: Yeah, the endangerment finding is the foundation for all of the greenhouse gas regulations that we have in the United States under the Clean Air Act, so it's absolutely essential to any effort to reduce emissions. Now, the science behind the endangerment finding is stronger now than it's ever been. That was issued in 2009. My goodness, there's 99.9% climate scientists in the world saying not only is it a danger, it's an out of control danger. So, I don't foresee the Trump administration being successful at all in trying to reverse, revoke the endangerment finding, not even in the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court had an opportunity in what we call the UARG case, years ago, to review the endangerment finding. It declined. So, I don't foresee that one going down.

DOERING: Pat, what other executive orders should we be watching here?

PARENTEAU: Well, as part of this energy emergency, he's directing the Secretary of Interior to convene the Endangered Species exemption committee on a quarterly basis to basically create exemptions for energy projects from the Endangered Species Act. That can't happen. I was there in 1978 when the Endangered Species Act was revised to create the exemption process. I know this process very well. It doesn't exist to waive requirements for energy projects. It exists to resolve what are called irreconcilable conflicts where you risk losing a species entirely as a result of a single project. So, it's not gonna work the way Trump administration thinks it's gonna work.

The other thing that the executive orders direct to the Corps of Engineers is to once again, declare this quote emergency and waive some of the permitting requirements under the Clean Water Act. It doesn't work that way either. That process of accelerating permitting is only done in the face of a disaster where human life is at risk or property is at risk. So, here's my point about the executive orders. They're way beyond the scope of the President's authority. They're way beyond the scope of environmental laws that actually govern the way these projects and permit systems are required to proceed. So, it's true that Trump is also going to go after every single Biden rule, but when there are rules, you have to go through a rule making process to take them off the books. That takes years. So frankly, I think these executive orders are wildly overreach. A power mad president who thinks he can do anything he wants and thinks he's got a Supreme Court to back him up on everything he wants to do. He's gonna find out that's not true. That's my prediction.

CURWOOD: So Pat, to what extent are these executive orders performative? I mean, they don't have the force of law, as you say, they're just an order to some official to do something inside his own government. And many of these seem to be aimed at providing good news for the fossil fuel industry. To what extent do you think he's simply trying to satisfy promises that he made to that sector, that the process that he's using he really can't deliver on?

PARENTEAU: That is a big part of it. Some of it is to distract us by throwing so many things at the wall that he spreads what he calls his opposition, his enemies list, and make it hard to, you know, challenge everything he's trying to do. But some of it is real. Okay, so here's some of the real things. He's gonna scrub all of the websites on climate information and climate science. He's gonna do away with the Environmental Justice Office of EPA and other offices. He can do that. He's gonna do away with the social cost of carbon. He can do that. He can intimidate people. Even if he doesn't accomplish firing people, he's gonna drive people out of public service. He's gonna damage these institutions. He will do that. He's gonna damage our reputation in the international community. There are things that he's gonna be able to do that are gonna set us back, that are gonna be a lot of lost opportunities. We're gonna lose a lot of the momentum that had been generated in the Biden years. But some of these legal things he's talking about, he's going to get stopped in the courts. That's what I predict.

DOERING: Pat, what are the long-term implications of some of these orders on environment and energy?

PARENTEAU: Well, we can't afford this distraction. You know, we are up against some incredibly frightening tipping points in the climate system of the earth, and we're way behind on what we need to do to transition across the board, clean energy, clean transportation, better food systems, everything, buildings, you name it, we need to change it. And that's happening. It's just not happening at the rate that's needed. So, the biggest impact of Trump is the lost opportunity. The second biggest impact, as I mentioned, is we're gonna have a brain drain of the smartest people, the most dedicated public servants, people I've worked with and know, and we're going to lose those people because they're just not going to put up with another four years of being harassed and intimidated. These are the things that are gonna undermine the ability of the agencies and the experts to deal with the problems which we don't have the time to ignore.

CURWOOD: Okay, at the risk of being labeled Pollyanna, what's anything bright in this scenario? If at all?

PARENTEAU: Yeah, well, the brightest thing is gonna be the response of states like California and other, frankly, blue states stepping up and trying to use their state laws and their state agencies to fill some of the gaps. I think you're gonna see the private sector. The market is already factoring in the transition to electric vehicles, to electrification generally, to cleaner and more efficient means of production. That's already happening, and I think there's gonna be resistance from the private sector to a lot of this. Some of the major automakers are all in favor of EPA's tailpipe emissions rules, because they understand that the automotive industry is transitioning, that innovative technologies are taking over, that the future is not the past, so there's a lot of support to resist what Trump is proposing.

The other thing that's interesting is the inflation Reduction Act. The biggest benefits of that act are in Republican districts. Eighty percent of the new growth and jobs and manufacturing is in Republican districts. So when Trump goes to Congress and says, repeal a lot of the provisions of the Inflation Reduction Act or claw back a lot of the money and tax credits under the Act, I think Republicans, certainly in the House, are gonna have a real hard time with that, explaining to their constituents why these factories that are creating jobs are gonna close, and why the money that's coming in from, particularly from Europe for offshore wind, Denmark and Norway in particular, willing to invest billions, when they start saying, Well, I guess that is not a good investment opportunity under Trump, certainly not when we start seeing tariffs coming down and so forth, you know you're gonna see a loss of investment, and in the time it takes to get these projects approved and built and operating, that's the biggest problem that we face.

DOERING: Pat Parenteau is an emeritus professor at Vermont Law and Graduate School and former EPA Regional Council. Thank you so much. Pat.

CURWOOD: Yes, Pat, thank you so much.

PARENTEAU: Thanks guys, always a pleasure to be with you.

 

Links

AP News | “Everything Trump Did in the First Executive Orders and Actions of His Presidency”

Inside Climate News | "Executive Orders on Energy and Climate Have Advocates Across the Nation on Edge"